Long Read // Manchester Orchestra - "We want to be playing shows forever"
With Manchester Orchestra’s Andy Hull and Robert McDowell visiting England for four ridiculously sold-out shows, three in London and one in Manchester – almost obligatory given the band’s name – we were lucky enough to sit down with them and lay it all out: the past, the future, the loved, the lost, and just exactly why the band don’t play fan-favourite track ‘I’ve Got Friends’ anymore.
Manchester Orchestra, particularly for those that know them, are a special sort of band. Formed in 2004, in Atlanta, Georgia, even the name stands out – a band is a solid entity, with at least semi-defined rules and roles, but an orchestra? An orchestra suggests countless people, all intimately involved, all blending and harmonising together constantly to create something new; it’s that communal sense, that feeling of togetherness, that seems to underlie their albums - of which 2021’s The Million Masks of God makes six, or six officially released ones anyway – as well as resonate with fans.
The band may have changed over the years, flitting from grungy indie rock, borderline emo and math rock to folk, acoustic, and a sprinkling of expansive cinematic masterpieces, but the hunger, ambition and most importantly humility has continued to fuel them, and thankfully there are no signs of that stopping anytime soon. From a recorded video playthrough of 2017’s A Black Mile To The Surface at Echo Mountain over Covid to the VR film released in conjunction with recent mini-record ‘The Valley Of Vision’ earlier in the year, the band’s continued ability to evolve is astounding, and these shows followed suit. As much as anything, although England may have had the odd acoustic show before, this short English stint marked a first for the band, something new, and a set of shows that fans had been clamouring for for years. But, more than that, it was yet further proof that the band is still able to grow. New tracks and covers mingled with re-imaginings of classics to create something wholly special, and not only were we lucky enough to review it, we were lucky enough to discuss it.
The first thing that anyone would notice, entering the surprisingly tall back room of Islington’s vaulted church-cum-premier music venue on Tuesday 3rd October, is just how excited Andy Hull and Robert McDowell looked. Having flown over from America a few days before, playing a by all accounts incredible first night of their Union Chapel trio on what was likely a heady mixture of caffeine fumes and jittery anxiety, before getting up to do it again, and then once more – this time also buffeted by interviewers and journalists keen to get the run-down – the duo would have been easily forgiven for the odd yawn; instead, far from nervous, there was an anticipatory buzz about the room. And why wouldn’t there be? “It’s a very unique room”, Robert explained; “I think the anticipation of the show, both for us and for the fans, with us having had to postpone it from May, just adds to it. But it’s now at the point where it’s gone so well that I’m just legitimately excited to see what happens tonight!”.
“We’ve never brought this kind of version of our band over here before”, Andy elaborated, “so there’s definitely some sort of anticipation around what it was going to be like and what the crowd was going to be like. But we’ve been pretty blown away at just how respectful and special the shows have felt.” Obviously, this wasn’t just any old Manchester Orchestra show – this was ‘An Evening With Manchester Orchestra’. An important distinction, as Andy clarified – “there’s a challenge to doing these types of shows. It’s like a kind of tightrope act; because it’s so quiet, you have to discover dynamics in different ways, and that makes these feel like a good stopping point of sorts before we head into the next chapter of Manchester Orchestra, and seeing what we turn into next. A good little retrospective of the last 16, 17 years we’ve been coming here. Plus, we’re filming it and recording it every night – we brought over Isaac Deitz, who did our Valley of Vision film, and he’s doing a full recording. Hopefully it’ll end up as both an album and a film!”
Cue waxing lyrical about how good the night before had been, particularly ‘End of the World’, more commonly known as ‘I Can Barely Breathe’, which the duo both seemed to appreciate: “we were happy with that one too! The first night, we had a couple of songs that we didn’t do the second night, they didn’t work out as well as some others, so I was really glad to hear it!”
It was interesting, then, to find out whether the two had been surprised by the UK’s reaction; all four nights had sold out like *snap* that. After a brief moment of looking at each other, as if they hadn’t really thought about that, there was a quick consensus. “The last time we came over, there was an incredible reception. We had sold out the full band shows quite a bit earlier than we’d expected, so we were hopeful; you never really know, though, when it’s a different kind of format. It seems like people are really hungry for this side of our band over here though, and it’s nice to be able to present that.”
Talking about full band shows was an easy segue into another recent development for the band, a co-headline tour with the ever-popular Jimmy Eat World. “It was amazing”, Robert gushed; “we’re big fans of that band. It wasn’t lost on us that, you know – we were sharing the stage with a band whose music we studied, whose career we studied, who influenced us and helped shape decisions we made.” Having swapped the order of play each night – one night Manchester Orchestra would play second, after Middle Kids, and the next they’d be on last, after Jimmy Eat World – Andy still seemed taken aback: “they’d be playing before us, and it would just feel really weird!”
Interestingly though, that tour didn’t seem to adhere to usual ‘touring conventions’. Typically, a band puts out a record, and then the tour and its setlist is shaped around that record. But not here; only ‘The Way’ got an airing, which made more and more sense as Andy went on; “we were able to do some really cool performances around the release of [The Valley of Vision], and I think because of what it was, and what it meant for us, it felt less important to hammer home as a tour? Plus, it was also a decision to not let Jimmy Eat World just bury us in loud guitars!”
But, why then, were these acoustic shows not more VoV oriented? Andy had an answer here, too –“long career, a lot of songs!” he said, chuckling. He does eventually delve into it though; “a few of the tracks we made on Valley were so pieced together and were made in such a different way compared to what we’ve written before, so a few of them just didn’t lend themselves to live performances. We tried picking the three that we thought would translate the best”. These of course being ‘Capital Karma’, ‘The Way’ and ‘Rear View’, each beautiful in their own way.
Was it tough sorting out the setlist, then, with such a long and more importantly diverse catalogue to choose from? “Yeah, it was tricky” Andy seemed to sigh. “It’s trial and error”, Robert clarified; “you get a little glimpse of it when you’re rehearsing, but it takes being vulnerable and standing in front of a bunch of people to know what works and whether something needs to be changed for the next night”. “Like Shake It Out!” Andy chimed in; “didn’t work, it’s gone.”
That, of course, led to a simple question: if it was such a struggle choosing which of your songs to play and which would be cut, why include a cover of Frightened Rabbit’s ‘My Backwards Walk’? Turns out, that inclusion was easy. “I’ve been covering that song forever. Scott asked us to cover it for the 10 years cover album as a band, and then I’ve just been doing it on my solo tour; it just felt right, and managed to fit into the set perfectly. But it also just feels really good getting to play his music in front of people, the most honest way to celebrate him.”
Particularly in a church, perhaps? “Definitely!”, Andy adds, chuckling. “Plus, he would have made fun of it, which is great. And be mad that we did it well!”
Even if ‘The Valley of Vision’ might not have gotten a full airing, it was still emblazoned over the posters and vinyls available on the merch table at the back of the venue, and it felt important to see whether the body of work still felt as poignant. “I feel really proud of it. It was us doing something that we hadn’t done before, both for the style that Manchester Orchestra were trying to merge into, and the length – we haven’t released a real EP since 2009 [‘Fourteen Years Of Excellence’, for anyone at home!]. We love the long-formed albums, but it was a fun challenge to try and self-edit ourselves. That required removing a lot of songs, sure, but we find more peace and success with the music that we’re making when we’re honest with ourselves; the 45 minute version in our opinion wasn’t as good as the 26 minute version.”
The two felt on a roll: “We let go of the question of ‘how are going to play this live’ a long time ago, and then it just felt like there’s no formula to music”, Robert adds, before passing it back to Andy; “which informs what we do next. Our job is always what is the most interesting combination we can find of our sounds that pushes the band further and, ideally, surprises ourselves with where we can go.”
That, then, raised the question of whether these fresh, new and surprising sounds sort of drown out the older ones. Do the ‘classics’ just get played as fan service?
“No”, Andy replied, near-mortified. “We would never play anything for fan service. That’s why we’ve stopped playing ‘I’ve Got Friends’; we just don’t really enjoy playing it, so we don’t.” At this, he shrugs; “that was one of our biggest songs in America, but we just don’t really enjoy it that much. We overdid it! But I’m just grateful that looking back at the whole time I’ve been in this band and have been writing songs and lyrics that have been released officially, I can still stand by the person I was. Like ‘Colly Strings’; that’s about my wife, my wife of now 15 years. I wrote that song 20 years ago. That’s amazing! I still mean everything I said, even having written it at such a young age. I love that.”
Officially released? What about not ‘officially’ released, like ‘Nobody Sings Anymore’?
“I mean, that’s sort of canon, right?” Andy asks; “well, it was released in my mind, and we would love to release it properly one day! I would be lying if I sat here and said they were all brilliant though; they’re not. It takes time to throw things away. But that was sort of our first real album.”
It was interesting, then, to look at the songwriting process in more detail. With the two having four or so side projects between them – Andy Hull having both Black Books and Right Away! Great Captain, and Robert McDowell having solo work under the name Gobotron, as well as the two of them collaborating as Hollywood heroes for the avant-garde blockbuster Swiss Army Man – do they start with songs or with a project in mind?
“It’s evolved”, Andy seemed to muse; “the way that Manchester get together and collaborate has changed over the 18 years of getting together and trying to create something. We’re pretty focussed when it comes to writing a Manchester album, but that doesn’t mean I won’t bring in a bunch of homeless songs; Black Mile was the first record that we started to do that. Before, I probably would have said ‘Oh, this is too folky, this should be Right Away.’ But then I started realising that I shouldn’t set rules.” “You don’t want to put restraints on the spark of creativity!” Robert added, concisely and eloquently.
“You don’t get a song like The Alien or The Sunshine on Black Mile without that experimentation. ‘I like this song, let’s see what it’s like with the band.’ Sometimes it’s the opposite; you want to force it to be a Manchester song, but it doesn’t fit. Saying that, though, it’s a bit more obvious when I’m working on the story albums!”
Speaking about Black Mile, there was one obvious question. A Black Mile to the Surface got the full playthrough on YouTube, Everything To Nothing got anniversary shows, The Valley of Vision is getting the live shows, the recorded film and the VR video – favouritism much! – but what about the rest? “We had a couple of ideas for other stuff, and then COVID happened. The ‘final problem’”. Robert answered, keeping his reply ambiguous. “We’ve been trying to do Simple Math stuff but that’s been a logistical nightmare; I don’t know. If Anniversaries keep happening, we’ll keep honouring them” Andy added, “before we move onto the new thing”.
This new thing, though; we’ve had Youtube, we’ve had VR, we’ve had Patreon – what are their thoughts on AI? Particularly given the hard-won victory of WGA over creative protections! “I think they’re spot on. I don’t want to be the old man yelling at the clouds because I don’t want to understand it, but stealing intellectual property, or something created organically, isn’t cool”. Perhaps a slight understatement from Andy, but Robert was quick to jump in. “On the one hand, it would be great if AI could take over for us – but I think the music industry is lucky to have live art in its corner, because I don’t see that immediately being replaced.”
“Music and dancing are said to have originated before language; there’s something just really powerful about people getting together in a room and experiencing something. So people are going to use AI for good, and people are going to use it for bad, but you can’t take away the experience of live music. As much as people want to see live music, they also want to see the odd fuck up during a set, the human side. Maybe that’s our last hold out?” Andy paused for a second, before cracking a smile and adding: “Though I’ve had some friends try and write Andy Hull lyrics through AI and ChatGPT – they’re all shit. I don’t have to worry yet!”
From new technology to new bands then – and first up, SkyeChristy! The two sisters from America, supporting four the four nights, were phenomenal. Andy seemed almost proud answering this one: “We just have a great booking agent over here! She just always recommends really great bands, who all become good friends of ours over the years; she suggested SkyeChristy. Heard them sing, sounded awesome, put them on the show. Simple as that!”
As a band with such a loyal fanbase and such a huge platform – not to mention the possibilities offered by their yearly mini-festival, The Stuffing – Manchester Orchestra seem uniquely placed for reading the lifeblood of new bands. So, what other bands stand out for them nowadays?
“The Middle Kids.” Robert answered immediately. “They’re the soundtrack in my house. Middle Kids and Lunar Vacation”. Andy took a little longer to answer, musing for a second on the doubtless countless names; “there’s a killer band called Upchuck that are starting to become a thing. And then there’s a collaborator of ours who has a record coming out, Brother Bird from Nashville Tennessee. It’s a really killer project.”
As the chat grew to a close, there was time for two more questions. First up, to steal a leaf from their own recent chats they conducted on their Patreon podcast, what had been some of the highlights of their past near-twenty years? Robert was quick to the draw here too: “Playing ‘Deer’ at [O2 Shepherd’s Bush Empire]. During that line ‘dear everybody that has paid to see my band’, the cheering was just deafening. Those are the sorts of moments that shake you awake and make you aware of where you are; it’s beautiful and amazing, getting to experience that with 2,000 people.”
Andy’s answer also concerned the UK, or at least our apparently strange predilection with singing over instruments: “We love that y’all sing guitar or musical melodies on top of the lyrics. We’ve never really had that happen for us; you see it happen with so many bands, but we don’t really have that sort of sound. But ‘The Silence’… At the very end, when we’re doing that outro, the crowd starts singing the melody. That was a ‘WE DID IT’ moment, crossing that UK thing off the list!”
“We thought we’d figured out the best way to do that outro, but nope!” added Robert, laughing.
It always feels cruel to leave one of the deeper questions until the end, but much like the afore-mentioned ‘The Silence’, it’s very much closer. Putting it to them both, the interview ended with ‘what does Manchester Orchestra mean to you?’
Andy’s gut reaction was a blink, before passing it over to Robert while he thought.
“It’s friendship”, Robert answered, at first simply. But then he explored it further: “it’s a constant battle of figuring out what’s next. It’s ultimately our legacy. It’s a lot of different things that I can’t put into words, but I guess for me it’s a representation of striving to find the next thing.”
Finally, it was time for Andy to step up to the metaphorical plate. “I like that perspective of… I wouldn’t say battle for me, but there’s always something to consider for what’s next. That question is always there in an exciting way; there are ebbs and flows and ups and downs, how hard certain things can be, or how gratifying and rewarding. But it’s our lives’ work. We’re committing to it and allowing it to evolve and become what it will become. But we talk about it all the time; lord willing, when we’re still going in 30 years’ time, we plan to be making our best music. I doubt it’ll sound like what we sound like right now, but I just find that exciting.
Manchester Orchestra allows me the idea that there are no limitations or ceilings to what we can try to accomplish, artistically and creatively. It’s terrifying, it’s encouraging, it’s inspiring. Who knows?”
Robert, the quieter of the pair, seemed to sum it up perfectly: “we want to be playing shows forever. It’s just the most beautiful thing that we get to do what we do.”
Feature by James O’Sullivan
